‘Oppenheimer’ - Interview with Production Designer Ruth De Jong
Oppenheimer became an unexpected box office hit, close to making 1 Billion dollars. Christopher Nolan’s three-hour historical epic follows J. Robert Oppenheimer (Cillian Murphy), the man behind the atomic bomb. Nolan and his team, including production designer Ruth De Jong, came together to recreate one of the most pivotal moments in history.
The film spans decades, locations, and perspectives during its lengthy runtime, taking the audience into the inner workings of Oppenheimer’s mind. Offscreen had the opportunity to talk to De Jong about using space to explore persona, recreating the Trinity Test, and how Oppenheimer relates to what is happening today.
Jillian Chilingerian: I'm very excited because this is my favorite film of the year. I've seen it five. First of all, congratulations, I feel like this film was definitely breaking a lot of records that were unexpected by everyone.
Ruth De Jong: ourselves included
Jillian Chilingerian: It's insane to watch, because you would not imagine this movie making this much money. When I watched the movie, read the interviews, and the book, I love this idea of using the perspective of space to communicate paradoxical ideas about the characters and who they are. There is a lot of really grand space and, there's a lot of really close space, with the private and like public persona of Oppenheimer as a character. How did that factor into your work from when we see the hearings to when he's out in Los Alamos, and how he really shelters himself when he's in these close spaces versus when he's with an audience?
Ruth De Jong: I think all of those were very purposeful decisions that Chris and I made together. Los Alamos, New Mexico to Oppenheimer was his place of retreat. He was sent out there when he was a boy. He grew up in New York City and, then I guess pollution was terrible in the teens, so his parents sent him out to New Mexico to go to school and obviously live in the fresh air and get well. I think the wide open spaces and the West were a complete Haven. One of the first things Chris and I did was to pick this epic Los Alamos location where we worked to build our town. The currently existing Los Alamos, obviously is modernized, incredibly built up and we knew that wouldn't work. For our picture, we did end up combining a lot of the interiors at the actual Los Alamos and, that helped us budgetarily but, it also ended up being the right choice to be able to have them shoot in Oppenheimer's house and the boy's school along Bathtub Row. In terms of Oppenheimer dragging everybody out to New Mexico, it made sense on so many levels, they were in the middle of nowhere, and it would be impossible for there to be any infiltration of any kind. They were just so incredibly protected, but it was also his, his happy place and his place of just freedom-free thinking. The remoteness was where he found his peace, his solace, and his calm. It's interesting because, in the room where his hearing took place, he had no control over how Strauss organized that whole thing. It was a World War Two temp building that, at the time, was on the Mall in Washington, D.C, where the Washington Monument is. Strauss had a whole scheme to put him in a very unassuming room and basically, as Kitty says tar and feather him for those as long as that went on. Chris really wanted to over-emphasize that with our set and the way it was shot. It was a very, very small space. Chris and Hoyte were the only two that really fit in there with the camera, in addition to the crew, and bless their hearts, they were in there. It was a solid two weeks they were filming that scene with everybody, all the dialogue and smoking. Strauss's hearing in the Washington DC interiors hotel, all of that felt in line with emulating the past.
Jillian Chilingerian: That room, I could not imagine when you're watching it, you're like, "Oh my gosh, how are the tables fitting in there?" So I cannot imagine actually being in that room like shooting it. That just seems like a lot.
Ruth De Jong: they're also smoking the whole time and they're herbal, but just the whole idea.
Jillian Chilingerian: The interiors and the exteriors, I really love it when you watch the movie; there's such a fluidity to them, like moving across. I am interested in making it all come together as if they are walking from building to building.
Ruth De Jong: Definitely, we built the entire town that you see when he's walking Main Street and the T section. His office we built practically at Los Alamos, so the interior exterior of his office existed there. We did some interiors with the lecture hall, which was inside the T section. Their home, for instance, Bathtub Row, when Kitty is putting up the sheets and taking down the sheets when you're looking at the house that is at the original Los Alamos house, but then when you see the reverse of the town, we just replicated the clothesline out at our exterior location with Kitty, so you assume the houses are behind. We were able to cheat all of those exteriors. For instance, with the boy's school, we ended up utilizing that in the Christmas party; we made it the was like the town gathering hall or just the community center. Originally the Christmas party was going to be at the Tolman's house with a house up on bathtub row, but we simplified it by saying you know what, "Let's take over this boys' school." When Oppenheimer is given his award from Groves with all the flags and the crowd, so we shot looking into the boy's school at the real Los Alamos, and then the reverse with the whole crowd and the backdrop at our location. We just tried to be really smart, no CGI, no green screens, and make a really clean transition that you wouldn't even think twice that you're not there or that the lodge isn't there. I mean, if you really thought about it, you'd be like, "Oh, wow, I never saw the lodge, where is it? But I think, thankfully, you don't think about that.
Jillian Chilingerian: I would not have picked up on that the shots are so fluid. There definitely are a lot of locations, a lot of time periods, a lot of moving around. From an audience perspective of keeping them on track of, we're in Berkeley now we're in DC now we're in Los Alamos, so what was that like with the locations and making sure that they stood out where like people could track. I remember the first time I watched it, I did not realize that he was in two different places Berkeley and Pasadena. I know Berkeley as my sister went there so then It took me the second time where I'm like, Oh, he's like moving locations. What was that like to map that out?
Ruth De Jong: It was mayhem. We had 150 sets, and then exactly as you described, we chose to shoot in Berkeley, Los Angeles, New Mexico, Princeton, and New York. Chris and I went and traveled the US early in prep and scouted all the real places. We spent a week in Berkeley scouting homes and the school extensively, Berkeley left an indelible mark on me and Chris. The aura around Berkeley, and how significant it was to Oppenheimer and his practice. It put us on the map to just being a leader in theoretical physics, which was mostly left to Europe at this point as to why Oppenheimer was traveling back to garner and gain that insight, that is what Berkeley became to the US. I wanted to make sure we were in Berkeley for some part of it and we really could only end up being there for two full days of a shoot. So I went to Pasadena because they had all similar craftsman-style homes, so to me, it felt like a seamless match. We did not go to Washington DC, so Washington DC we primarily went to New Mexico interiors. Strauss's hearing room, was a huge task when Chris said you've got to find DC and in New Mexico. I'm looking out at this sea of adobe structures going this is the last place I want to find DC. I asked the scouts to find me every mid-century period interior across the entire state. They're like they don't exist, I said they have to exist. We were able to get enough, so Strauss's hearing where he has the little room that he's constantly going back to all that was in a building in Santa Fe, that was just period correct turn of the century. We did the New York ballroom where he has that secret meeting in Albuquerque in some old girls' school that just worked. It was the right period of architecture. And then coming back to LA that was essentially our backlog. We were also picking up DC in LA, as we built the Oval Office, the Cabinet Room, and the White House lobby on stage, which was the only stage work of the entire film. That was by accident because we had originally hoped to be shooting at the Nixon Library and turning that into our Truman, but that contract fell through and we lost that location. So we had like five days to throw that set up and it was sort of unexpected snafu, but it worked. We pulled it off. Los Angeles was our catch-all in a sense for anything that we needed interior-wise to match for New York, DC, and Princeton. Chris and I were talking about the other day, and it was just, can you believe we were like, kind of on task and figuring this? Because it was constantly you just the train left the station and you were just in the madness of like, Wait, where are we doing that set? I think that's the spirit of the entire film and what you feel when you're in it and our goal was to not make you question at any point, Oh, are they really in New York? You are trying like us to keep up with Wait, where is he right now? But I think having seen it five times, you're probably like, Oh, I get it.
Jillian Chilingerian: I'm envisioning when you're mentioning places. And like what you mentioned, there is such an essence when you watch this film, like, weirdly, I don't want to say it's comforting for me, but it's like, I watched it, where I'm like, Oh, I know where we're going. Like, I think it just speaks to how built out. I could not imagine tracking every single location. I think there's also a timelessness to when you watch. We know what point we are in history, but there doesn't need to be all the stuff in the background that's like, Oh, we're in this certain year. Was that intentional, the thought of timelessness going into designing these sets and everything around them?
Ruth De Jong: Absolutely. Yeah. 100% I mean, that was crucial to both Chris and me, we are aligned in that vision. I think in terms of recreating history, just less is more and not really overstuffing or overfilling the frame to try to scream what year it is because, in a sense, it's forced. I mean, if you think about how people actually live, and if you truly go back in time, it isn't a tchotchke shop. So our goal was every time I would dress a set with my team I would strip away and, then Chris would come out, what are the minimal amount of things we need on set to give the character, their essence, and who they are to this space? Or if it was a public space, does it fit that bill and then just take away? We really wanted to push modernity. Chris was a huge proponent of that, I think we gained by the sort of just nudging everything like if sometimes I would have a period correct telephone, it's too much like it's too 1929 You know, and he's just like put a normal phone and I'm like, but that didn't come out till three years later. And it wasn't the point. We weren't ignoring historical accuracy. We sort of just really toted a line and kind of kept each other honest with every single set and would walk in and I'd open every set with Chris and we'd kind of scan the room and if anything stood out to us, we would adjust it and that was how we worked the entire way in it. I think less is more really supported the cause too but I think it was very important to us. Those exact words timelessness and authenticity to the characters and really push who these people were and and the worlds that they inhabited in the simplest manner possible.
Jillian Chilingerian: Yeah, I agree. I think there's such functionality to everything where I think oftentimes period pieces feel so distant, even though, it could be something that happened in the 60s, and you're like, oh, that happened so long ago, but it wasn't that quite long ago and it feels like there's often this barrier, where there's something like, Oh, we don't use that now, or, that feels foreign. But I think with this one, they're going through movements as if they're humans. We're humans. We're all living the same type of day. It's just now we live in the nuclear age. Sometimes you get so caught up in little details and it's like, well, that doesn't equate to the entire story.
Ruth De Jong: Chris, from the beginning, his goal was to tell this through Oppenheimer's eyes. I think that gave us a lot of leeway in the sense that you didn't need to be caught up in too much too many accessories. Because really, the focus is where you are emotionally and mentally with this character. And so simplifying it helps support that storyline as well.
Jillian Chilingerian: Yeah. Obviously, this is a very pivotal moment. And not only in American history, but world history with the Trinity Test and the bomb, and how did that feel for you, being the person recreating this and for the film?
Ruth De Jong: Yeah, it's a great question. I think initially when Chris and I took a solo trip, we scouted the actual Trinity Test site where the first atomic bomb was detonated. That was a really powerful moment, just standing there. We didn't really speak, we just took in the 360 degrees, and you saw the four posts of what's left of the tower. And just understood what a pivotal point in American history in the world's history that this was, and then what that meant moving forward. It was not lost on us at all, including the fact that when we were scouting, that was the week that Russia invaded Ukraine. I mean, NPR, on all our scout drives, like Chris and I are just like, turn on the radio, like, we're just listening to this jargon of like, Russia is going and you're like, and it was the like, we're gonna drop the nuclear bomb, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, is this conversation happening right now, again, it just took you right back there, and how ironic, and we no one knew at that point, here we are, there still, you know, I guess the threat, obviously, has never been lost, but also simultaneously the conversation that the worlds not ready for this, this needs to be governed, there needs to be things set up and to manage this. It was all very heavy. When you're in it, you sort of have a task at hand. I'm not overly emotional when I'm working, in a sense, because you take the script and it's probably like being a doctor going into surgery. Like you just got to do the thing and that was making this film and it wasn't until I watched the film, Chris screened it for me for the first time and I wept because you can't take in the emotional gravity of it when you're making it you're it's very nuts and bolts, and you're trying to capture the emotion but there's no pause to reflect. I think that's why early on in the scouting were our moments of reflection, and scouting, like the actual Basecamp and where all of this went down, but past that it was more operational. I don't know what the word is exactly. But you're just you're executing essentially and you've separated, you've turned off the emotions. So it wasn't until the film was alive and out that Chris captured that perfectly by combining all the department's work from the sound design to the picture to the sets. I mean, you're taken to that moment. I'm sure you've even seen it five times you feel you feel the weight and the gravity of that? And probably it's why it's so successful because why else would a biopic be so interesting, you know, like, affects every single one of us indirectly. And that fascination of, this was that moment that the entire world changed and there are no words that I think can really sum that up. I mean, Oppenheimer said the best pile of quotes in terms of, I become death and on and on. I think when we actually got the cleared U.S. Department of Justice plans of from the U.S. government of the bomb, you're kind of like, oh, wow, this is crazy. We're not literally going to a science lab making it because I can't tell you how many times someone's like, did you actually, no, it was made out of fiberglass and plaster and paint and rubber cords, but it looks pretty darn good for being fiberglass and not real with a plutonium interior.
Jillian Chilingerian: That'd be too far. I love hearing real-world implications on this film, because it's a moment in history, we all know when we all learn about but, once you put it in the context of seeing things visually and, the scale of everything, it really hits you and you're like, wow. I personally love everything that happens after, the test, all those conversations. I think it really touches on what you're saying of the consequences and how we have these conversations and how we're seeing it again today and how this will always be something that will be reoccurring within not only like America, but like other countries and they operate foreign policy, and there's an accessibility to this power.
Ruth De Jong: No, the scene to when Bohr comes to surprise them for the Christmas party, and then good they go back to the lab, and he's talking to Oppenheimer, and I tear up every time when he's just like, great, you've done this thing, but the world is not ready for this and we need you Oppenheimer to lead this initiative.
Jillian Chilingerian: My last question, I'm always curious, when you're executing like your are in it and, then, it's such a different thing. When you watched, were there moments or scenes or sets that when you're in the production process, you're like, Oh, I can't wait to see how this turns out? Or things that surprised you when you saw the movie.
Ruth De Jong: I was very intrigued to be able to see the finished couple of things because a lot of it was the visual and special effects that we shot on camera. So all of the atoms mixing and all of that, none of that was computer generated. Scott Fisher and Andrew Jackson, Scott Fisher is the special effects supervisor and Andrew Jackson is the visual effects. They had, what we called a science tent setup. Inside was like a fish tank. I mean, just the craziest stuff and the liquids and goos. And so you're seeing all this getting filmed and getting made, and it's all experimental and I was very excited to actually see that and how effective that was. Knowing that we made that like an art project, essentially, and then seeing the actual, moment because Scott Fisher and his team went out to the desert and literally did the explosion, and we filmed it, but you don't really know how that's going to. So seeing all that cut together was what I was most excited about because everything else pretty much was you're there. You're seeing it and you're watching dailies every night, and we've been watching the visual effects in dailies, but you're not seeing it intercut with the scenes. I would say that was the most thrilling to me to see the cohesiveness of all of these parts that we had been working on for so long come together. And it truly is effective and worth what we went through.